Benji Cowart

Speaker 1 00:00:12 What is up everyone? Welcome back to the Ian, the Round podcast. You got Matt and Boudreau hanging out and today we have a very special guest joining us. It is Mr. Benji Coward. Benji, how you doing? Speaker 2 00:00:25 I'm doing great. How are you guys doing? Doing Speaker 1 00:00:27 Well do doing well. It's 2020, so doing about as good as we all can. You do, and you, you know the drill. You get it man. You get it. What you been, what have you been up to? How's your, how's your uh, 2020 been here in, uh, the great city of Nashville? Speaker 2 00:00:40 Man, it's been for me, it's been, uh, it's been good, like the whole rhythm, like fortunately being a writer, um, I've actually done a lot of writing through all this cuz one of the cool things that, I mean, it's not cool for the artist, but it's like, because they're right now they're not doing a lot of touring. They just have time to be creating content. So some of that's been good of just, uh, having accc having, uh, access to a lot of artists here in town. Um, you know, and then beyond that, like just in normal life, just trying to, you do this whole uh, in school like Zoom school thing, which my kids like, that's, you're just, it's, we're about to have like a full blown prison right in my house. Speaker 1 00:01:17 <laugh>, they're going, Speaker 2 00:01:18 They're back at school now, but they're, you know, they're kind of talking that they may go back to doing stuff from home and I'm like, yeah, that's not gonna work. <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:01:26 Yeah dude. I mean it's, it's gotta be tough as a, as a parent and I mean if, if as a, as I know you have the, the professor background as well and do the teaching stuff, I mean it's, it's an interesting time to be doing anything that involves like personal interaction and whatnot. I mean, me and Tyler see it with not being able to be on the road a whole lot this year and uh, just gotta try to make the most of a situation, you know? I Speaker 2 00:01:48 Know. I mean it's like you and it is, it's like the good thing is we'll all be able to tell our grandkids we went through a pandemic and uh, we're mostly normal but not most, you know, with a few twitches, but mostly normal on the other side of it. <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:02:01 Oh yeah, yeah, for sure man. So, um, so you're actually the first, um, is it, is it considered worship music, Christian music? I mean like, you're the first like non-country non pop guy that we have had on here, which is really cool cause it's a world I know nothing really about. I've learned a whole lot about it being down here in Tennessee and learned a whole lot about just how big it is. And people think of Nashville as the country music hub, but it is just as much the, the worship contemporary Christian, Christian rock hub as well, which is interesting. Yeah, Speaker 2 00:02:32 It, it is. And uh, it's funny cuz it's, it's actually always healthy. Like I thought I was telling you earlier, I lived in Buffalo for seven years, so it's, I think it's really healthy to, to know where you're placed in the pie is. It's cuz you know, it's like you go Yeah, I mean just be honest, Christian artists in places like New York and other places, like no one have any idea who they are and so you kind of go like, you might be a real big deal in this industry, but you're a big deal in a like, tiny, tiny sliver. Yeah. So I mean it's, it's a very healthy kind of thing of going like, let's be honest, like if you're going into this to be a big deal then go pick another genre. Yeah. Um, but if you wanna write music that's something you really believe in and something you really believe that might change, change a situation for somebody and, and you know, with radio or with worship music, you know, your hope is that I can be a part of something that's bigger than me And uh, you know, cuz we're fortunately we're blessed to be able to make a living but you know, you have a hit song in Christian music, it's not the same money as uh, having a hit song in country music. Speaker 2 00:03:32 Um, and so, you know, it's like, but at the same time it's a blessing to get to do what you love and actually be able to pay the bills doing it. Speaker 1 00:03:38 Yeah, for sure. Ab absolutely man. And something that I've kind of noticed, and we'll get into your backstory here in a minute, but something that popped in my head, cuz we were, we were jamming a lot of it. Me, me and Tyler here, were running around doing, doing errands as we usually do on our podcast days. We pop out for lunch and then realize all the other things we need to do while we're out of the house here in 2020. Um, there seems to be like maybe more on like the countryside, like, because we were, we were listening to a lot of, a lot of stuff that, that you've had cut and things like that. Well you're big daddy weave cuts, a lot of the big daddy weave cuts with big daddy weave. That stuff's pretty cool. I wa I was jamming to it earlier and stuff. Speaker 1 00:04:11 Um, again, not something I didn't grow up with, but it seems like a lot of what was coming out of the worship world in the mid two thousands, even like post 2010, it that kind of like melody, that kind of production style and like, just the feel of the song is starting to cross over into country and maybe it has for a while, but like I was, I was hearing a lot of those hoaxes and stuff and I'm like that that sounds like a lot of what's on country radio now. So for you as a, as somebody who's more in that Christian world, what do you feel kind of the same way or do you feel like there's those crossovers and stuff? Speaker 2 00:04:43 Well it's funny you say that cuz like when I lived in Buffalo, everybody thought I was like, cuz I, you know, I would just lead worship and they're like, you sound like a country, Chris Tomlin. <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:04:54 And Speaker 2 00:04:54 Like I grew up in Nashville so I like, I'm going like, I don't think I sound country at all. But you know, it's like you can, you can have your own reality in your head all you want to, but when everybody around you says you sound like you're seeing country. So it's made me really aware of like, I think some of it is the ruiness of what a lot of Christian music does and absolutely like, you know, I was born and raised in the south, so it's, and I was one of those kids that actually until I hated country music and I lived in Hendersonville up until about nineties country and then I absolutely fell in love. So when you get like Vince Gill and you get all these different, you know, and even Garth Brooks and everybody's like, Garth Brooks is a sellout, but like when I go back and listen to his Hits album, I'm like, that's some of the best songs I've ever heard. Speaker 2 00:05:36 Yeah. Um, and so I'm one of those people like, you know, you get like Diamond Rio and just when I go back I, I'm just like, if you don't, if you don't believe that Na East Country is the best country, we're not friends, um, <laugh> and I'm, I'm a little biased, I'm a little old school, but it's like, but that's kind of, that's what I fell in love with and some of it was, and I mean it's funny because it's, it's a lot like Christian where it was just pop enough to be accessible to a lot of people. Cuz like I kind of, where I checked out was some of the old old country. Um, I kind of had to go back and grow to love basically Whaling and Willie and, and some of the, those guys. And now I really appreciate him cuz I'm kind of like, you know, when Merle Haggard was playing in a bar, there's a chance that he was the baddest dude in the bar Speaker 1 00:06:20 <laugh>. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:06:21 And you just don't have that much anymore, so you don't, so it's like, even with, with country, with country artists, a lot of times I'm like, I don't know if I believe that guy because now Stapleton, I believe anything comes outta his mouth. Yeah, for sure. And it's sometimes, and honestly it's, it's that way I feel like that bleeds over to Christian. I mean, there's some people where I hear them and I'm, you know, you're kind of like, you really like for a great example, big Daddy weave like Mike Weaver, that dude, his, his love for Jesus just kind of bleeds out of him. It's, it's real, it's who he is. It's the real deal. But I think when you hear people, I think one of the things that's gonna come through, and I think maybe that's one of the similarities in the two genres of music is authenticity. Like you, you know, when somebody's telling their story and you know, when they're not, you know, when they're just writing a really slick song or singing a really slick song and you're like, well yeah, this is really cool. But I'm not sure if, if I believe that they've experienced any of that. Speaker 1 00:07:09 Yeah. Yeah. And I like absolutely. You know, obviously like we have a little bit of history being in a classroom together. And I remember you at times preaching that to us in a classroom is like, tell your story. Don't, don't kind of tell anything that you don't know. And I feel like, you know, if you're trying to do that and both genres, like you said, like it, it shows real quick. Speaker 2 00:07:30 Yeah. People sniff you out quick. Speaker 1 00:07:32 Oh, absolutely. So now backing up. So you, do you claim the title of being a Unicorn? Speaker 2 00:07:38 What is the unicorn You're Born? And It depends. That has so many Oh yeah, actually. Yes. Speaker 1 00:07:41 Yes. So you're born and raised here in Nashville. You're not like myself or Tyler, any of the hundreds or at this point probably thousands of people that have moved here, um, to Nashville. So you were born and raised here? Um, ki Speaker 2 00:07:53 I was born, born in Baptist Ho, but when it was Baptist, it's St. Thomas now Baptist Hospital. In downtown Nashville. Yeah. Lived, lived in Hendersonville my entire life. Went to Belmont College and it wasn't till a year after my wife and I were married that we went into ministry and then we lived, like we lived for 15 years. We lived all over the country, um, and lived away. But yeah, I'm, I'm, I am as local as you can get as far as being raised here. Speaker 1 00:08:17 Yeah. So what's um, real quick sidebar where we always like to get the food with, with me and Tyler Hot Chicken. Go to where is it? Speaker 2 00:08:26 You know what, that's a good question cuz I came in like, we moved back, let's see, when I came and started taking a t Tribeca was probably 2013. Speaker 1 00:08:34 Yeah. 2013. And Speaker 2 00:08:35 So we moved back and I was asking the same questions. You were <laugh> I kind of came back a tourist cuz like we got ripped off like when we left Nashville, I'm telling you like, you didn't go downtown, like you Broadway, you didn't go down there. East Nashville. You didn't like if you lived over there like that was, that was, that was the hood. Yeah. Um, and so it was so moving back here, I'm like, I can't believe how much they got done downtown. And the, the food scene that's here now, like it was never here when I was like in college I feel so ripped off. Like I go back to Belmont and I'm like, we had like a high school version of what Belmont is now. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:09:10 I remember like whenever I came and visited Trebek at first, like I was looking for places to eat and I remember like review after review after review of like, Nashville was like, it's not a food city, it doesn't have good food. And then like, that was early 2013 and by the time I moved here late 2013, like it changed. Did you hit it right? Changed, yeah. <laugh>, Speaker 2 00:09:32 You hit it. Right. And I still, honestly, my my favorite place still to go is Sacco. Speaker 3 00:09:38 Okay. Yeah. Saccos a good, Speaker 2 00:09:39 Like there, there's a, I highly recommend the combination of their, because if you living in Buffalo, they're the only place in town that has what I think are credible buffalo wings. Okay. Because I'm now a wing man. I don't, I don't play around Speaker 1 00:09:52 With that. Hey, when you're living in Buffalo, New York, you learn a couple things. You learn that the bills have a hard time winning knock on wood. This year it might be their year. You learn this might be, you learn that that a snow shovel and a snow, um, snow plow and snowmobile, all that stuff is very useful. Y'all get snow like no other and you learn what great chicken wings are. Not just good chicken wings, but like the best of the best in Speaker 2 00:10:14 Buffalo. Like everything you hope, everything you would hope a chicken wing could be, you'll find in Buffalo Speaker 1 00:10:19 <laugh> that more Speaker 2 00:10:19 So. Okay. Well fulfill your wildest chicken wing dreams. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:10:23 So what was that experience for you being a, being a native southerner and going, I mean you said you lived, you bounced all around and in ministry with Yeah. What you and your wife did, you experienced a lot. What was going to a place like Buffalo and some other places, like for you, did you ever feel like a culture shock or anything like that? What Speaker 3 00:10:39 Was the first place you went after? Speaker 2 00:10:41 So we went, we left, uh, we left Nashville and first we went to Fort Worth, Texas to go to seminary. And uh, that, that was, I mean that's almost very similar cultures. Very similar. Yeah. Um, it was cool to be down there. Obviously you have a huge Hispanic population, so it was, it was kind of cool to just be immersed in that and kind of just see like, just the coexistence there. And, and so then we moved from Fort Worth, we moved to Florida. So Florida's a whole different animal cuz Florida on the coast is like lower New York, which we were on the coast far. But if you go into, uh, we're down about 30, we're in North Port, which is about 30, 45 minutes south of Sarasota on the, uh, west coast. Yeah. But it's funny cuz man, if you go into like central Florida, it's like deliverance, redneck, <laugh>. Yeah, absolutely. I mean it's like a whole different level of country. Speaker 3 00:11:29 Yeah. Oh yeah. Speaker 2 00:11:31 Um, but you know, so we, so we experienced a little bit of that northern thing, but you know, once you, once people move to Florida, like your northerners are all chill, they're in retirement mode. Oh yeah. So they're, yeah. So they're just chilled out. Like you kind of drive at your own risk because of all the people that have moved down there and probably shouldn't be driving <laugh>. Um, and then, so from Florida, like we moved, it almost sounds like we were running from the law, but I promise we're not. Um, <laugh>, we moved from Florida to, we went, we went out to Las Vegas and lived for a year and a half at a church plant, which that was, uh, the cool thing about Vegas is the people that live in Vegas are really normal. It's all the people that go there that act like absolute idiots. Speaker 2 00:12:09 And so, you know, so we really, like we, we gotta be, we were only there for a year and a half. Um, we took a year out of ministry, moved from there, went to Atlanta, Georgia for a year, and we were basically just getting ourselves sane again. Uh, just basically took a year outta ministry, but then we moved to Buffalo for seven years. So Buffalo is still like, I, I always laugh cuz growing up like, man, I always felt a little awkward around the good old boy culture. Um, whereas when I lived in Buffalo, I'm like, I think I'm like a New Yorker at heart. Cuz we'd have people, like people at my church, first time I'd meet 'em, they'd walk up and insult me to my face and then be like, you wanna go to dinner? And I'm like, this is so weird. And then they would be like, they would be your friends for life. Speaker 1 00:12:49 Oh yeah. Speaker 2 00:12:50 And so when people just told you like it was, and I'm like, I think this is who I am because I don't like, I, that's kind of the way I'm wired. I'm not the, I don't have a lot of tact. I just sort of shoot pretty straight most of the time. And I was like, these people, like, and even the one, you know, I had, I mean like there were a couple people in my church that just straight up right away, like made it very clear they didn't like me. Yeah. But I was kind of like, cool. I know where I stand. Like, you don't like me, I don't necessarily like you either. It's all, it's all good. Like, we'll just stay away from each Speaker 1 00:13:17 Other. So, so when you're going around and stuff, so you're, you're going and you're working at like a local church so you're bouncing from spot to spot. What's that adjustment period like? Because I mean, like, when we go out, when we go out on tour, we're in one city and then we're in the next city and then we're back in Nashville. Yeah. For you, you, y'all are spending years at a time with a congregation. Yeah. Growing with the people of these, of, of this church, of this parish. What's that experience like? Speaker 2 00:13:41 That's a great, I mean that's cuz where I've landed, it's a great question cuz where I've landed for anybody who's moved around, I'm just like, look, give yourself at least two years before it even remotely feels like home. And even then, that's where it just begins. Like, so like when you say, you know, you move here and it takes you, you know, a year and a half, you're like, man, I'm really just not meeting people. I'm like, you just hadn't been here long enough. Like it's gonna take at least two years before any place, just be like, all right, this is where I'm at. I know I'm just starting to feel like my place now. Some places are faster. Like we were down, we went. So after Buffalo we moved down to Nashville. We were here for four years and that was Tyler's where I was teaching and met Tyler. Speaker 2 00:14:21 Um, I was a full-time songwriter in teaching in college. And then we took two more years on staff at the church down in New Orleans and then, and we, and just moved back probably a year ago. And so, like my biggest regret in all that is like, we've moved our kids around a lot. And so we're, you know, it's just a, it's the unsettling and resettling and, and they've done really well with it. But I'm like, man, I like, I grew up in Hendersonville. I literally from kindergarten all the way through high school was with the same group of people. And so I'm like, I wish my kids could have had that. And it's, you know, it's just not the way her story played out. But, but yeah, it's, you get to a place you're like, all right, I'm done making new friends. I will not make another new set of friends again. <laugh>. Um, I'm done moving, I will never move my house again. Uh, so you get to a place where man, you just weary of it. You're, you kind of just, and you start really valuing those friendships that have been around a long time. Speaker 1 00:15:13 Yeah, absolutely. Speaker 2 00:15:14 You know, and you guys know what it's like when you go home. I mean, do you guys both kind of stay in the same place for most of your childhood? Speaker 1 00:15:19 Oh yeah, yeah, Speaker 3 00:15:20 Yeah. Most of it. Speaker 2 00:15:21 So, you know, it's when you get around people who've known you since you were a little punk kid. <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:15:25 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:15:26 There's just something about that where you're like, there's nothing like this is, this is, this is good. Like I went, when I went to my 10 year reunion, it was just so good to be around people who didn't know me as a pastor. They didn't call me Pastor Benji. And I was like, man, these guys all knew me when I was just an insecure, you know, insecure middle schooler with a perm <laugh> Speaker 1 00:15:43 The perm days. Okay. Yeah, Speaker 2 00:15:44 Dude, like, don't, like, there was, there was a season in my life where like, I don't know if there was a lack of male intervention or something, or my dad just didn't like my dad. I don't know if he, he should have stepped in and said like, no, you're gonna get the crap beat out of me. Don't get a per Speaker 1 00:15:56 <laugh>. Oh man. So talking about kids real quick, um, you um, Tyler had shown this to me. You did a pretty cool little take on the song Rude that came out, I believe it was a few years back. That that was pretty, it was pretty funny. And I don't have a kid yet, you know, Tyler's doesn't have a kid yet either. But I would say if as a father I would, I would want the same kind of things as you, you re as those lyrics that you rewrote, you know? Speaker 2 00:16:20 Yeah. It's funny cuz like that joke, I mean totally that song, that whole thing was tongue in cheek and a joke. But there is absolutely, it's like when I first heard that song, cuz I mean one of, actually I started listening to it cuz it was one of my buddies, like, you gotta hear the guitar solo. Cuz the guitar tone on that is just, it's from the heavens. Um, yeah. But when I heard, you know, like, I'm gonna marry her anyway, I was like, oh no, no, no, no, no. Like Uhuh, that's my daughter. And I had some punk kid tell me that, like, I'm gonna disappear you <laugh>. That's swear. I mean, you know, this being from New York, you're like, I, I'm not a mobster, but man, something rose up in me that would be, you're like, but I'm about to, I'm about to be. Speaker 1 00:16:58 Oh for sure man. Speaker 3 00:17:00 And now that you went to Louisiana and you're the swamp and stuff, you could even make it even more a possibility. Speaker 1 00:17:04 There's a lot, there's Speaker 2 00:17:05 A lot of, yeah, you'd be like, you'll be, you'll be a gator snack bro and no one will ever Speaker 1 00:17:08 Know what happened to you. There's a, there's a lot of places to have someone swimming with the fishies that's for dang sure. That's right. So how'd you really get into songwriting stuff? So you were doing this ministry stuff. How'd you end up becoming Benji Coward, the, the published songwriter with, with big hits in the worship world? How'd that come to be? Speaker 2 00:17:25 Um, man, I was always writing, like I, I had always, like, even as a little kid, uh, I kind of like, initially when I was a kid I was like, I I wanna be an artist someday or wanna do something. Cause I mean, I grew up around the music business. I grew up, my dad early, early on was involved with a company called The Benson Company, uh, which was a label that eventually got bought out and got bought out now as part of Capital. Yeah. Um, so I was around even Christian music early on. Um, and you know, from a, as a kid I always wanted to do it. So, you know, it's funny how my, my two nevers were, God will do anything you want, but I won't go to seminary and I won't be in ministry. And so it's, you know, of course God has a sense of humor, but, uh, but I realized like when I, when I went and did those things, it was kind of cool because one, the job that I thought I'd be taking was never the job that I was so scared of. Speaker 2 00:18:14 Like, I always thought I'd be like at a Baptist church conducting a choir and if that's your thing, there's nothing wrong with that. But I was like, that's not my thing. Um, but every church I was at, I kind of got to do the thing that I love to do and I, I really feel like that what I thought was a detour was actually what prepared me to come to town and be a songwriter. Cause I just spent 15 years. I mean that's, you know, when you're at, when you're at churches, you're in people's, you should be in people's lives. You should know their stories. And you, you kind of just begin to go like, man, when people are, you know, when you get a lady who's got cancer, you start kind of getting a real picture of, okay, what does she need to sing in church because we can't be throwing this, you know, put a bow on everything and it's go life's awesome and Jesus is gonna fix it all. Speaker 2 00:18:55 Cuz sometimes he doesn't. Um, and so understanding even those kind of things of like, I don't know why God doesn't choose to fix this. Does it mean he's not good? No. But you know, so sometimes even writing songs where you let people say, I don't know, like I don't, I trust that you're good, but I have no idea why this is going on right now. And so that's, you know, and that's where it's like when you start walking in people's stories, you start really realizing what are people really saying and what do I really need to say in a song? Cause I feel like when you write songs to the church, you're writing prayers for people and you're helping them say things that they don't even know how to say. And so it's, but you can't do that unless you really know people's stories and you're kind of walking in their story with 'em. Speaker 1 00:19:33 Yeah, no, that, that's some deep stuff right there. And I mean, with, with writing in, in Christian music, how for you, I mean, how does, I mean like, changing the messages, I mean faith is a whole nother level. It's a whole different thing from say writing, writing the writing. The song that for back home in New York is on like Z 100 or Q 1 0 43 or any of these big radio stations or, or any, any of that stuff. Like you're, you're really, you're, you're getting in touch with people's like inner, inner most, most top shelf beliefs and you're also expressing yours. I mean that, that's gotta be kind of difficult at times. Speaker 2 00:20:08 Yeah, it is. Well, you know, we've all heard the saying, like when you go to family reunion, don't talk religion and don't talk politics. Um, you're tr you're exactly right man. You're treading on some of the deepest, most in most convictions that people have. So like with Christian music, you certainly, I do think you really, you have to know the Bible, you have to know kind of, you really have to understand cuz you don't, you know, you've gotta understand that cuz it's almost like those are the, those are the parameters that you've gotta have your conversations in, if that makes sense. So I definitely feel like when we're writing Christian music, I do feel like we have, we have, maybe we have our own boxes, just like country music has its, it has its own boxes. Like there are certain things, uh, I love that the boxes are expanding. Um, but you know, even Incus, uh, Casey Musgraves, like I still know it's a country song. Speaker 3 00:21:00 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:21:00 He just does it brilliantly. Um, and with Christian music, like we, we, yeah we have, we have, I think Tyler, I think I did this with you all, but it's like, cuz I can gripe and complain about how we have more, we have more limitations, but it's like, but man, if me and Picasso both had a piece of paper and a pencil, I'm pretty sure the outcome would be very different between the two of us of what we would come out with. Right. Speaker 2 00:21:21 And so it's like, it's just, it's just what can you do within the boundaries of what you're given. So with, you know, we definitely have like, there's certain language that we use a lot in the church now that doesn't mean we don't try to push that. Cuz there's sometimes where I'm like, you know, have you ever heard a Christian song where you're kind of like, I feel like they just took a Christian mad lib and just inserted different church words. And even though don't make sense, they're just, you know, if you hear this song you're like, you just put a bunch of worship words in and made this a worship song and nobody even knows what it means. Speaker 3 00:21:50 Don't, uh, the whole don't rhyme grace with face. Speaker 2 00:21:54 Yeah. <laugh>, we've gotta have fire, we've gotta have water. Um, <laugh>. So, you know, and I think I, you've heard me say it but I also go, but there is a reason we talk about water and we talk about bread and we talk about fire as it relates to God. Cuz then I'm like, but yeah, go two or three weeks without any of those three and see how that works out for you. Yeah, Speaker 1 00:22:13 Yeah. AB absolutely man. Now in terms of like Christian music and stuff too, I mean I feel like it's, there's not just the, the contemporary Christian stuff. Like something I didn't really know about is how hard and heavy the rifts of like Christian rock bands like say like audio adrenaline and bands like that skillet. All those skillet, like I didn't really identify those as like Christian bands growing up and whatnot. But you talk about these boxes and whatnot, it's like there's these, like how many subgenres do you think there are within worship or within Christian music? Because there's gotta be quite a few. Speaker 2 00:22:44 Yeah. There, it's funny cuz in the, in the heyday there was like Christian Sky and there was Christian metal and there was Christian like, and I feel like there's less of it now. Um, but I think that's also just cuz the industry because of, you know, it's like nobody was ready for when all the streaming and when Napster and all that came in. So the, like the whole music industry, all of it shrunk. So because of that, I don't know if you like, if there are those genres, I don't hear as much about 'em. One of the things I am excited about though is the, what the possibilities of Spotify could do for Christian music. Cuz then you don't have, uh, you know, obviously I would love for Spotify to pay writers better, but the freedom, um, of not having as many gatekeepers as to what, you know, Spotify do feel like is the wild West for songs because man, a great song with great production is gonna find its way out there in Spotify. Speaker 3 00:23:37 Yeah. And that's something that, you know, the band that we work with now is kind of proving that point because they're completely independent. Uh, and they've got over a million listener monthly listeners right now and you know, they've never been with a label or anything like that. And they're kind of proving there's a lot of people that me and Matt kind of run with that do our writers rounds and stuff like that, that are proving like, you don't, you don't have the gatekeepers now that you had in the days past. And like if you wanna find something, you can go out and you can find what you like. Speaker 2 00:24:07 Yeah, absolutely. And that's, and you find your people, I mean, and the cool thing is, is there, you can't really even define it. Like, I consider what Johnny Swim does is Christian music. Speaker 3 00:24:16 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:24:17 Um, and you know, like even need to breathe, need to breathe. You might hear 'em pop up on the radio, but a majority of what's on the record is like this its own thing. Um, you know, and I'm here in country man, there's country bands out there right now kind of in the outlaw country world that those dudes, they don't, they'll never get an uh, they'll never get a song on radio and they are making millions and millions of dollars. Yeah. And again, because whether you agree with 'em or not, man, they're, they are authentic. Yeah. They're just telling their story And people, some people don't like it, some people do, but you know that you're like, they're not trying, they're not selling out. That's for sure. Speaker 1 00:24:51 Yeah. Dude real recognizes real. That's something that we like to say on here a lot. Yeah. You know, like absolutely real, real really does recognize real. So for you growing up, did you grow up listening to a lot of, lot of that, that worship style music? Or did you grow up listening to a lot of stuff that was in the secular kind of world? Like who were some big influences for you as as Benji, the kid with the perm jamming some music and his whatever, whatever car. Maybe an El Camino, maybe a Pinto. I don't know what you were driving <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:25:17 I was driving a Ford Escort GT Baby. Oh Speaker 1 00:25:20 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:25:21 With ground effects by the way. <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:25:23 Of course. Speaker 2 00:25:24 So like what I, it's funny cuz what I grew up, I had different phases cause I definitely grew up on Christian music. Um, but I also grew up, like me and my brother, my older brother, we grew up on rap. When rap first was a thing, like, like going back to like run like Curtis Blow, run dmc, um, uh, what is it? Uh, jam Master? No Speaker 1 00:25:48 Gr Grandmaster Flush Speaker 2 00:25:49 Grand Master Flash. Yeah. Like just that, like we just, we were like, you know, we typically with whatever the white suburban kid obsession with rap were was we were that kid. Like we would literally put the office plastic out in the driveway and we were break dancing <laugh>. And so it's like, like I came up on that. Like there was this pop thing that I couldn't get enough of, you know. And then back, you know, one of the things I loved about early Christian music is it wasn't a production based genre, it was a lyric based genre. So you get like about five different genres show up on Christian radio. So you'd get like a Christian rap band that would then get played by like a borderline southern gospel group behind. You know, it's like, and I think that's what attracted me to Christian music early on cuz that's, you know, but I was also listening. Speaker 2 00:26:34 I actually had to go back and catch up though later as a musician just on just great music period. So, you know, going back and understanding why, why, what was so great about Toto, what was so great about Pete, uh, Pete Townsend, what was so great about the police. Um, cuz we, I didn't grow up on that and I kind of was like, dang, I wish I had, I wish I'd been a little more into some of that just because of it. You know, widens your, widens your depth and or wide actually widen. You can't widen your depth. It deepens your depth. <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:27:02 Yeah dude. And that's again, something we talk about with Spotify and it really kind of being the Wild West, you can go back and listen to anything. If you wanna go back and listen to Frank Sinatra, he's there, you want to go back and listen to early Stevie Nicks, she's there, you know? Yeah. So you can really dive in and, and it opens up, you don't just have to flip on an oldie station or be riding around the car with your grandma or grandpa to hear the old classics. You know, you can really go out and explore. Right. Speaker 2 00:27:26 Yeah man. And it's like, and I've actually, I've done that with certain artists cause I'm just, you know, you'll hear people just swear by an artist and so I'll just go live there for a while and see if I get it. Yeah. You know, when, when I was, when I was living in Louisiana, I was driving back and forth at least twice a month, um, in a seven hour drive. So I remember there's, there was a, there was a Bruce Springsteen drive where that's, I just took a deep dive and that's what I listened to for a long time. Speaker 1 00:27:49 <laugh>. Dang. That's Speaker 2 00:27:49 Why. And we just going, okay, I get it now. I get it. Like I, you know, cuz sometimes with him I was always like, I don't know if I get it. But then, you know, hearing what he does live and then actually listening as a writer, listening to his lyrics and going like, oh my gosh, this dude is, he's a freak of nature. Speaker 1 00:28:04 Yeah, dude. For sure. And now you talk about, about live and stuff, something I've yet, I mean, I've experienced it a little bit and I mean, I say a little bit because I've been to like a modern day like contemporary Christian, like non-denominational service, which I thought was like, which I thought was awesome because for me growing up, I grew up in a very like formatted, like basically the Catholic church is, or the um, Episcopal church is like the Catholic church, but you can smoke and there's no confession booth. You know, it's like that's, that's how, that's how, that's how my buddy, that's how, um, somebody had described it to me recently. Um, but um, what, that's amazing. What's a live Christian show like, or something like Winter Jam or some of these like, big events within like the worship music scene and stuff Speaker 2 00:28:48 There. The cool thing about, um, one of the really cool things I think about, especially the, with the way that the worship vibe kind of crept in is one of the cool things that does that does happen at a Christian music concert that I think is amazing is it's a fully interactive, like everybody sings along. Cuz some of that is just comes with the worship dynamic. Yeah. Um, and there's, you know, one of the things like, and I, this is one of my, this is one of my soap boxes when I was the worship leader at a church and bands are hitting me up to come to my church. There was part of me that said, if you're not a, if you're not a better musician than the musicians I have on stage, why would I bring you in? Yeah. And that sounds harsh, but I'm, but I'm kind of like, man, one thing I miss, I, you know, we almost said, well it's almost wrong to put on a show in, in music. Speaker 2 00:29:38 And I'm kind of like, I don't know about that because if I'm paying a ticket, like, so you're talking about like Winter Jam or you go to a festival, when I go to a festival, man, I wanna go, I wanna go see somebody that can play. So it's, it's both a balance of the ministry they bring. And fortunately there's a lot of great musicianship in Christian music. Um, but that's, that to me is something that like you got, we gotta be careful of because once Upon a Time, man, like there were some Christian bands that they could play with anybody, um, pfr, uh, white Heart, like just, you know, white Heart, I think at one point had Tommy Sims as their bass player, uh, John, you know, all these different like, uh, one of the, uh, Huff Brothers playing like, and these guys now are all like session monsters in Nashville. So it's, yeah. And so it's like, I would, I would love to see us and to some degree we have some that with some bands, but I also, you know, you asking about a live show, like there is something to be said along with the element that's already there of an awesome spiritual experience. That's one of the things I love about even what Big Daddy Weave does. And the cool thing about Big Daddy Weave, Wes, those jokers can play when they let it go. Speaker 1 00:30:40 Yeah. They Speaker 2 00:30:41 Can, I've seen them Speaker 1 00:30:42 Multiple times. Speaker 2 00:30:43 Oh, they get, they kind of grew up, they grew up in the Dave Matthews era. Yeah. And so they got that nasty funk, like, and they can unleash the beast. They don't do it a lot, but every now and then you'll, you'll be like, what in the world is going on right now? <laugh>? Um, you know, so hearing bands like that where, where they've just got that in their back pocket, even if they don't always play it. Like I, I like knowing that a band can, they can tear it up on stage just doing an instrumental live performance. Speaker 1 00:31:10 Yeah. Dude. No, the closest thing I would say I've gotten to that would be I've, I've gotten to see, and it's remarkable being a 25 year old that can say this, thank God he came back a little. He came back and did that. That, I mean, it wasn't a reunion tour, but I gotta see Garth Brooks twice, like before I moved down here to Tennessee and come on. See, that to me was, I mean every, it was deafening with how like the whole crowd just singing back a song like, like the river or unanswered prayers. Yeah. Like you talk about, you were talking about how the nineties guys kind of got it and Vince Gill especially, I mean there is that, that southern gospel kind of influence in there. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. But you go to a guard show it, it's a spiritual experience. I was Speaker 2 00:31:47 Gonna say, I was about say like, you would think anybody who has been to that knows there's a spirit, I don't, you know, I don't have words for it, but there's a spiritual element going on. Like, I remember hearing one of my buddies when I was in middle school, so this really dates how old I am, but like one of my buddies who was like, well, you know, he's kind of one of the tough kids in our middle school. But he went to a Michael Jackson concert and was talking about crying at the concert and he couldn't figure out why. Like Wow. Yeah. But it was just such an overwhelming experience. And he's like, I was crying and I couldn't figure out why I was crying. We're like, well that's cuz you're a sissy <laugh>. But he really wasn't. Um, and so it's, it's funny how like there is something about, especially when everybody's singing and nobody cares about, like it's, and again this isn't saying like, it's, it's a form of worship. And I'm not saying it's like it's well that's wrong. They're worshiping Garth. That's not what I'm saying. But there's something going on there that like, when you get a bunch of people unified and aimed in the same direction and they're just pouring their hearts out, there's a spiritual thing going on, which is really powerful. Speaker 3 00:32:45 Yeah. Speaker 1 00:32:46 Yeah. And I, and I get, and now I, I, that helps me understand why having a band in church like really kind of amps things up. And it really does. Cuz for me, I grew up with like, there was, there was the choir in the back of the church, there was the old guy on the organ and it was very traditional. You go up, you get your little wafer, that's the bread and you, you dip it in the wine. Yeah. Like all that stuff. And, uh, but, but going to, like, I've been to Crosspoint here, I've been to been to New Spring, been to some, some different style, like different churches or whatever. And there is something to be said for like the, the production and, and having the band there and whatnot. So for you, like, did it, do you, and also too something, this should pop in my head, something I've noticed, and maybe it's, it's being down in the Bible belt now, almost everybody that I meet, particularly in the country songwriters thing, uh, we always ask, Hey, how'd you get your start? He's like, Hey, I played in church. Or we asked like, yeah, hey, how'd you get your start? I sang in church. Like Yeah, there's, so I think that's part of the reason that there's so many great musicians down here that come from these areas known as the Bible Belt. Yeah. It's, it's introduced so early on, like the Christian like church produces so many, so many great musicians and singers. Speaker 2 00:33:56 Absolutely. That's, that's one of my fears. Um, because churches have gotten so, like their production's gotten so slick and they're starting to play with tracks. And I sometimes I go like, man, don't, I mean like, I mean like even Whitney Houston, but you, but somebody's gotta give those kids a place to start. Yeah. And so I think sometimes we gotta be careful. One of the things I love that goes on typically in, in black church culture is like when you go to an a predominantly African-American church, you'll see a bass player and then you'll see a kid sitting by, you'll see a drummer and then there'll be a kid sitting by the drummer and they're literally mentoring people on the stage as musicians. And I, I just go like, as a church, we should always be doing that because just what you said is exactly right. Like so much of American music was these kids were, were given their first shot to play anywhere in the church. And I think if the church ever stops doing that, then we have really screwed up. Speaker 3 00:34:51 And it's something that, you know, obviously you preached whenever, you know, you were kind of teaching us and stuff. But it's something that I was taught too whenever I left my church to come to Nashville was, you know, I started off in my church as a bass player and whenever I wanted to go from bass to acoustic, I had to find a youth or somebody that was younger than me to play bass. Yeah. And then I could move to acoustic. Well then I wanted to move from acoustic to electric. Well I had to find somebody that was younger to play acoustic so I could move to electric. And then I went from electric to the soundboard and start kind of really crafting what now is my job. And uh, once again, I had to find somebody that could play electric. And then when I left to come to college, I had to teach somebody how to run the soundboard and how to run the tech of the church. You know? And it's that thing. That's something that, so was Speaker 2 00:35:41 That, Speaker 3 00:35:42 What's that Speaker 2 00:35:42 Was, was that one of your leaders having you making sure you did that? Speaker 3 00:35:46 Yes. It was, it was our worship leader saying like, Hey, if you want to do something else, somebody has to step up and take your place and they have to be able to do what you're doing. Speaker 2 00:35:55 That's a great leader right there, man. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:35:58 And you know, that's even now, like in jobs and stuff, like if I know I'm about to leave a job, like, you know, no matter what it is, whether it's retail, whether it's, you know, like I've been working in a golf course recently, like mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you know, if I'm leaving a bar running sound like I've been running sound at bars now since I left Tribeca in 2018. Yeah. And that's been kind of my, my hustle. But like, even whenever I'm leaving a bar and going to another one or leaving a bar and going on the road, like I, I try my hardest to say, Hey, this is how I do things. This is kind of what's expected. Even if the boss is saying it or not. Like it's still to me, it's my job if I'm leaving to make sure that that person is trained and make sure that they can take over my spot so that it's not a headache for the band to be tr switching from me to another person, you know? Speaker 2 00:36:51 Yeah. Dude. And that's the art of law. The art of leaving well is a lost art. Speaker 3 00:36:56 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:36:58 People just don't do that anymore and they, they that, that should be like, that should be just a no-brainer. Speaker 1 00:37:04 Yeah, absolutely man. Now, um, you were mentioning going to Belmont and Tyler was telling me you went, you were at Belmont at the same time as a guy we know in the country format pretty well. Um, and I'm sure there's, and there's a lot of folks that have come out of Belmont and stuff like that. Um, the guy we're talking about, of course Brad Paisley. Uh, but Oh yeah. Also just being at Belmont, I know today it's, it's a staple. Like a lot of kids come to Belmont to Yeah. To want possibly do stuff with worship, but for the greater for on the, on the greater population. Do a lot within music, whether it's music business or they're songwriters or they're majoring in guitar Yeah. Or whatever. So what was your Belmont experience like and how important is it to have schools like that that are really focusing on music? Speaker 2 00:37:46 It was, so when I was a sophomore, I think I remember going and seeing this, this guy, uh, play a showcase. And it was one of those, and I'll say, I mean it is Brad, but at the time I didn't know it was Brad. So Brad, by the time he was a sophomore, or I don't know if it was when I was a sophomore or junior, cause he graduated the same year. He had already written the fishing song <laugh>. And he'd already written like a couple, like one or two of his other hits. And so you're just sitting there going and then he'd already playing at a level that wasn't far from what everybody heard on his first, like where he is now. Like he was already. And I just remember going like, I need to find another job. Yeah. If this is who I'm competing against. Speaker 2 00:38:30 So it's like, and I think, man, I think coming to Nashville, I think it's, I I, there's so many times I wish I would, I was like, I wish every church musician could go live in Nashville for six months just to get humbled. Cuz man, you know, we musicians anywhere like you live, you know, I'm sure you had in in New wherever where you were in New York, you just got really big fish in tiny ponds. Yeah. And man, they just think they are the stuff and then you go like, yeah, go live in Nashville for six months, go work at a, go work at a restaurant and find out how many waiters and waitresses can place circles around you and they're not even the industry. Speaker 1 00:39:04 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:39:05 And so I just remember like, just that whole experience of guys like Brad. I mean the cool thing was watching like Brad's first touring band was all Belmont guys. Um, that's not a fair bar to compare to. Cuz now all that like, like Bernie Herms was his pianist, Bernie's done stuff with David Foster and done like big Christian music producer, but also just producers in in other, in other realms as well. So these guys were all like, there was just a freak show of a band that he went on the road with. Like, it's funny cuz his producer Frank Rogers was my ra Speaker 1 00:39:35 Oh Speaker 2 00:39:35 No. And for a long time I was just That's awesome. Like, I just never, like, I was just like, RA Frank was just a cool ra. Like I had no idea he was a producer. Yeah. And a high level producer. So just being around that you just kind of go like, like what all these people have all these secret powers. And I just thought they were just hanging around my campus and they're like high level master level musicians. Speaker 1 00:39:59 Yeah. Dude, that's, that's, that's a lot. And that's something that I noticed too. I mean coming, coming from coming from New York down to Nashville, obviously this, this is the Music City. New York City's got a lot of cool stuff, but it doesn't, it doesn't have the, the musical community and stuff. And that's one thing I've noticed too is that the, the community thing and that I, I refer to Belmont as like the B word. Like it's something where if somebody has Belmont attached to 'em, it it, it kind of just the networking and the community that comes with it. And I'm sure the same can be said in a way for like, for Trevecca, maybe for Vanderbilt a little bit. I know it's not as much with music. Mts U or m mtsu I know is another big one or, or Lipscomb to an extent. But, um, but for you, I mean the just the the alumni base and the network base and stuff has to be so cool to be a part of. Speaker 2 00:40:47 Yeah. I mean it was, it was cool being there and it was cool coming through that. And you know, looking back on it now, I do realize like, uh, that was even just graduating with a class and I'm like, yeah, we had some that was a pretty special class to graduate with. Um, and just being a, you know, they just taught some, they really did. I'm one of, I'm one of those things where it's like, hey look, there's, there's some value to going to college for music business because you do, it's really about, you're, you're really paying all that money for a network of people. Um, but I also think I, you know, and there are plenty of people too that make it in this industry that don't have a college degree. So I'm, I'm one of those people where it's like, man, it's just who works the hardest? It's just who. Like, there's, there's, you know, it's funny, I texted, uh, I sent a text out a while back to five of the most successful music producers in Christian music. I'm like, I'm just curious how many of y'all have a college degree? And only one of them had a college degree and it was in like Bible, it wasn't even in music. <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:41:44 Wow. And so, you know, and all these guys just have their YouTube degree. They've just spent the hours on YouTube and then they just, they just work harder than anybody else. Yeah. And you know, so I've, you know, and we had the same thing at Belmont. You you, the the difference between who's successful and as who was not was the guys that were sleeping in the studio floor between classes. Cuz they just wanted to, they were just wanted to be in the middle of it. They're the guys that are successful and the guys who just wanted to have a college experience and thinking that that music business degree would get them a job in the industry are probably doing something else now. Speaker 1 00:42:15 Yeah, absolutely. Ti titles and, and and and things like that only, only go so far. So, so you've been doing the music thing now for, for a long time. What advice would you give to somebody who's kind of fresh to Nashville or fresh in the Christian world or whatever? What kind of advice would you give to somebody as a writer? Speaker 2 00:42:34 Um, be patient, like, be like, uh, like keep, I think man, all we can own is just keep getting better. Like, I can't control who listens to my songs. I can't control what happens to those songs. I can only control my craft. So like, it's something I'm constantly trying to just not be as another lazy musician. So it's like, you know, if I can't, I'm, I'm not a, I just with any kind of digital format, I think my learning curve, I just jumped on too late. So like, I'm, I'm not probably not gonna be Logic guy or pro Tools guy, but I can be better with my, better with guitar, better with keys because both of those just open different vocabularies musically. Um, even grow better with learning to write lyrics constantly. You know, cuz the guys who do this well, uh, you know, they're, they're just so many people in this town that just have a harder work ethic. And, and, and people who work hard will always outreach. Talented people who don't work hard. Yeah. You know, now talented people who work hard, they're gonna do great too. But like, so I just say like, don't, uh, own what you can own, which I think is own your craft, keep getting better personally, um, be persistent without being a stalker. Um, Speaker 1 00:43:51 Yeah. That, that, that, that can be a fine line by the way. Speaker 2 00:43:55 It is. And I think some of that is like you, you're sending us something to somebody. Um, you know, that's one of the things we're doing with the class. I'm, I'm teaching a Lipscomb down. One of the things we're talking about is like, if you're going to use somebody's time, use it well. So if you send them your songs, send them like maybe two, maybe one, nothing more than that. Um, if they give you advice, treat it like gold. And actually, like, if it's a song they say, Hey, you need to rewrite this or work on this, then go do exactly what they said and then send it back when you get it done. Because a lot of times that's what also people are looking for, is just being teachable. You know? Cause you'll get people like, no man, people just don't get my art. They don't get, and it's like, no, you just wrote a bad song. Like <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:44:35 Yeah. Accept it. Accept that you're, you're gonna get right. Just grow. Yeah. You gotta grow. Speaker 2 00:44:39 And we all do it, man. Good. The Lord. If you saw like some of the most seasoned songwriters in town, if you saw everything they wrote, you realize that a lot. They, they all, we all write crap songs in the midst of great songs. So it's just easier to go, yeah, this isn't a good song. Let's see if I can write something better and not, you know, not, not be precious about it. Like it's, it's just a song. I mean, it's like, yes, I know you love it and you shouldn't write a song that you're not excited about, but the reality is like, the best of the best. Write a lot of really bad songs and it's okay. It doesn't crush who you are as a person. Just be like, yeah, it's not a good song. Laugh it off. Go write another one. Speaker 3 00:45:14 Yeah. And I think that's honestly like what you're just talking about with like, you know, and it's not a good song. Like, you know, don't take it personally. It was some of the best advice you ever gave me was like, you know, yeah. Don't take everything to heart. Like if somebody says, Hey, I don't like that. Know, they're not attacking you personally, but, right. Yeah. Like, that was honestly like, that was some of the best, best advice I think I ever got from you. And it's helped me out a ton, you know, being here. Speaker 2 00:45:40 Yeah. Cuz man, no know is a way of life in this town, Speaker 3 00:45:43 Right? Speaker 1 00:45:44 No. Like, Speaker 2 00:45:45 It's just, it's just, Speaker 1 00:45:46 That's a bump. It's just a That's a bumper sticker or a t-shirt, Ben, you gotta, you gotta get that trademarked. My man. No is a way of life in this town. You gotta, Speaker 2 00:45:54 It is, it's like, it's like you just get, but the, you know, and you kind of, but again, it's not personal and you just kind go, okay, well you just, you gotta have a little bit of like the, is it Lloyd? Is it Lloyd and Dumb and Dumber? No, maybe. Yeah, it's Lloyd of like, so you're telling me there's a chance. It's like Speaker 1 00:46:09 <laugh>, Speaker 2 00:46:11 There's gotta be that part of you that's like the eternal optimist of going cool. Not a, not okay. Not a good song, but I got another one. Can I, it's like, yeah. You just can't let that stuff beat you up. Speaker 1 00:46:21 Yeah, for sure. Hey, are your, are your kids getting involved in music? Speaker 2 00:46:26 They are. Um, I've got a son who, he is the one that's at Belmont. Um, like he's so good guitar wise. Like, he would never let me play in his band. Like, he's <laugh>, he's a legit, like he's a legit guitar player. Yeah. And then I've got a daughter who's a senior in high school and she's, uh, she's, she's a great voice. Kind of one of those where we, we haven't, we can't really even take credit for it. Um, but she has one of those where it's like just believable old soul type and she's just got it, you know? And I'm her parent, so I know I'm biased, but like, when I hear her saying, I'm like, I believe that. Like, so it's kind of cool to watch that. And, um, you know, then my son right now, we've got a freshman who's, he was playing drums for a while, but now he's more into football. Uh, he's playing at Franklin High School and he's, he's my, he's my one kid that like, he just loves contact. Like, he likes hitting and he likes being hit and he just, he just built and wired for it. And it's fun to watch cuz I was such a sissy when I was a kid. <laugh>. So when you have a kid that like, just likes to lay it on somebody, you're like, yeah, that's, that's nothing like me, but that's awesome. Speaker 1 00:47:28 That's my boy. Yeah. <laugh>. Speaker 4 00:47:29 Yeah. You're my boy Speaker 1 00:47:31 Boo. That's awesome. Speaker 2 00:47:32 I can take no credit for that, but that is my son, <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:47:36 That's awesome, man. You got, you got anything else going on the rest of this year? What, what have, what's, what's kind of your, uh, your, your outlook as far as stuff you got, got anything like that you're, that you're pushing? Anything you wanna plug while, while we got you on here? Speaker 2 00:47:50 Man, I don't, one thing I do, um, I am, I've, I've been taken on just, I do one-on-one mentoring with writers and if I, if that's, if I had anything to plug, I'd be like, I'm, I'll take on students and the difference of what I'm doing is just that I'm actually teaching but also writing with you. Okay. That was one of the things I figured, uh, uh, is, you know, if and if you're just to use an athletic, uh, comparison. Like you can go through all the training you want, but until you play up. So it's like if you're playing basketball until you just play ball with people that are better than you are, you're not gonna get better. Right. And so as a writer, man, I was always, you know, when I was a student and going to all these songwriting bootcamps, like I, you know, it was cool hearing all these people teach about songwriting, but really where I learned the most is when I actually started sitting down with writers and, and writing with them and kind of going, oh, so that's, so that's one of the things I do, you know, I do like an, it's an, it's an hourly fee type thing, but I'll do mentoring with other writers and I think the, probably the difference of what I'm doing is that it's like, but I'm actually offering to write with you and help, you know. Speaker 2 00:48:53 So a lot of times what we'll do is somebody just brings their song into it, just a song start and then I'll work with them and, and teach as we go. But I'm, I'm also helping them write the song. Cuz a lot of the times what I feel like inexperienced writers just don't know where the gold is in an idea. And so it's like, sometimes they'll build the whole house of the song on the wrong idea, but there'll be one line in the song where you're like, no, no, no. Burn all that down that line right there that, that line is money. Build the whole house on that line. Speaker 1 00:49:21 There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:49:22 And so people just don't have eyes to see it. So it's so for that, I mean, I don't even have a website. I just tell people just DM me on Instagram or message me on Facebook and we just go from there. Speaker 1 00:49:32 Awesome man. Awesome. That's great. One, one last thing. 2020 as a songwriter. Weird time. Have you gotten used to Zoom writing yet? Speaker 2 00:49:40 Dude, I love Zoom writing cuz I'm an introvert. So <laugh> ah, Speaker 1 00:49:43 <laugh>. See, everybody that we've had on this year, we've, it's been kind of like 50 50. Some people, they're saying they're like in person. They gotta they gotta have the vibe. And there's other people that are like, Hey, music, music Row kind of messed up letting us write songs over a screen. We don't gotta go to 16th Avenue anymore. We can stay at home. We can, we can. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:50:03 It's like, man, as far as you know, I may not even be wearing pants right now and I'm writing a song, dude. Dude. Speaker 1 00:50:07 Exactly. It's the, it's the ca it's the classic news anchor stuff, you know, you don't know what's going on underneath the desk. <laugh> Speaker 2 00:50:14 Don't ask don't tell. Hey <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:50:16 Amen. That, Speaker 2 00:50:17 But yeah man, I like, I love, I love Zoom writing because it's like, it's just, it's laid back and there is, there is a kind of a cool business sense cuz it's like, you know, if I'm hanging out in a room with you, which I do love the hang, but sometimes it ends up being like an hour and a half of the hang or is there something about like when we're on Zoom, we're kind of like, okay, hangings awkward, so let's just get to the right. Yeah. Because hanging on Zoom is just awkward. Like there's just no, yeah. Speaker 1 00:50:40 There's Speaker 2 00:50:41 No great way to do it. So you just kind of get down to business and go And Speaker 3 00:50:44 That's kind of what we've been hearing a lot of is like, you know, those three hour rights are coming down to an hour, maybe an hour and a half Speaker 2 00:50:50 Yeah. And you're getting stuff done. Speaker 3 00:50:52 Yeah. And you're getting more into your day if you want it, you know. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:50:56 Well it's funny, like, I feel like for every industry, cuz I like over at, uh, Franklin Bridge over, I was doing the driving range there quite a bit and like I'm listening to dudes doing business deals as they're just hitting golf balls and I'm like going, why not? Like yeah, you ain't gotta be in office and you can be, you got your little Speaker 3 00:51:13 Phone in. I've literally been at the golf course and like been getting somebody set up on their tee time and everything and like they're on the phone like finishing a business deal while they're like paying me to go golf. Speaker 1 00:51:23 Yeah. Ben Benji, Benji, you, how's your golf game? Speaker 2 00:51:28 Well, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm much better than I've been. Like, I'm shooting like my, I'm happy right now if I'm in the low nineties. Speaker 1 00:51:35 Hey, that's right. That's right where I'm at, bud. That's, I feel Speaker 2 00:51:38 That like, but it took, like, it literally took me being, I kind of used, one of the things I did with Covid is I'm like, you know what? You have to just spend a, a certain amount of time on the range every day actually building a swing. Yes. There has to be a period in your life where at least for three to six months you just actually get intentional about building your swing. So I finally figured out the mechanics of my swing to where it's not like rolling the dice and it's not like witchcraft and sorcery every time I play where it's like, well I might, I might hit it. Well today I might not. Like now I can kind of go, oh, I'm okay, okay. I'm, I'm slicing. Let's let's tweak that and let's get it. And I, I'm smart, I can straighten it out now. Speaker 1 00:52:12 Yeah, yeah. See I still haven't straightened out my slice. I aim to the like the woods to the far left and it just hooks all the way across. Speaker 2 00:52:18 You just play this last baby, Speaker 1 00:52:20 But then the, the one or two times that you do hit it straight, that ball is gone, man. See ya. Speaker 3 00:52:26 I, I know you played cheekwood, uh, quite often, but I know on like whole, I think it's five where the houses are on the right. Oh dude. Without fell. I like hit one. I just heard Speaker 1 00:52:38 Smash Speaker 3 00:52:38 Something and I'm just like, oh man, couldn, I just hit somebody's house. Couldn't for like the fourth time in a row, couldn Speaker 1 00:52:42 Couldn't pay me to live on a golf course. Dude. I mean, I would love it as an old guy in Florida. I might do it one day live on a golf course and just say, screw it on, I'm gonna go golf. But like the insurance you gotta have for when guys like me get on the course and you're just donk, donk, donk. Speaker 3 00:52:56 We'll have to all get on a course one day together here soon. <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:52:59 Yeah dude, I'd love to. Yeah. It corrects me up on Cheekwood because they've got that, that one hole. They've got the family that will sell your balls back to you. Oh Speaker 1 00:53:05 Dude. Yeah. Dollar for three Speaker 3 00:53:07 Side. So, so I worked Thursday mornings and I always played Thursday afternoon with some guys that work there. And legit, last time we played I put one four foot into that guy's yard just far enough to where I couldn't reach over and scoop it up on my club. And I was just like, and it was like a, I mean obviously working on a golf course, I get all my stuff for free. I've gotten all my clubs for free. Right. I've got all my balls for Speaker 1 00:53:31 Free. He's got this set up, dude, I'll tell you what, but Speaker 3 00:53:32 It was like a titleless prov one. So it was like a really nice bond. I was like, I want that back <laugh>, Speaker 2 00:53:37 How old do you have to be to work there? Cause my son, like, I need to get him working there. Speaker 3 00:53:41 Got 16, we got 16 year olds working there all the time. Speaker 2 00:53:44 15, Speaker 3 00:53:45 16. Speaker 2 00:53:46 16. Okay. That'll be the, that'll be the magic here where I'm like, you're working at Cheekwood, dude, I don't care if you want to or not. Yeah. Speaker 3 00:53:51 And he gets free golf Speaker 1 00:53:52 Then and, and he gets pretty golf and there you go. Father, some bond in golf Speaker 2 00:53:55 Course. Well he, he's, he's, he's learning like he's one of those where I'm like, man, if you'll just learn your swing early and not so you don't spend the rest of your life unlearning, you'll be, you'll actually enjoy this game. Well Speaker 3 00:54:04 See, I didn't even start playing until August, like never hit a golf ball on a golf course till August. So it's something that's bit me pretty well Speaker 1 00:54:11 <laugh> the bug bites hard in Covid. I'll tell Speaker 2 00:54:12 You what. Oh yeah, boy, it does bite hard Speaker 1 00:54:14 <laugh>. Absolutely. Speaker 3 00:54:15 Well, especially when it's free. Speaker 1 00:54:16 Yeah, dude. Absolutely. Well, Benji man, thank you for hanging out. Where can people go to find you? Speaker 2 00:54:22 Uh, they should find me on Instagram, uh, in Facebook. Benji Coward. Uh, pretty, pretty low key. Um, <laugh> not, not much man. Don't have a website. Speaker 1 00:54:32 I got you Ben. Well, hey, it would be, it would be a pleasure to one, get on the golf course, but two, we do those writers rounds over at Live Oak and we have never dove into the, the Christian worship round. It would be really cool to have you come and play one of those over at uh, yeah, Speaker 2 00:54:45 Dude, I was lucky. It was funny. I played, uh, I got a, a random, and it's not because I earned it, but a friend of mine just happened to be the guy coordinating Bluebird. Okay. So I got to play at Bluebird one night. Damn. But I like, it was so funny cuz I was, you know, he's, he, he's the guy that, uh, his name's Brian White and he's had some big country songs. So he's, and he's just on, he's hysterically funny, really knows how to run a ri like do a writer's round. And I, I finally was just like, dude, I said with my songs and everything I'm saying like, like I feel like I'm the guy that somebody tells a joke and I'm the guy that's talking about starving kids in Africa. Speaker 3 00:55:18 <laugh> Speaker 1 00:55:19 <laugh>. Speaker 2 00:55:20 So it's like for writers around with a bunch of country writers, I'm like, how do I do this without being that guy, without just being like the heavy bomb on everything <laugh>. Speaker 1 00:55:28 Oh man. Oh man. It'd be, it'd be an honor to to have you have you on there, man. Well, thank you so much to, uh, to Mr. Benji K for hanging Tyler. That was, that was awesome, Speaker 3 00:55:36 Bro. Yeah, man, Benji's a great guy. Like it was cool to be under him for a couple years and just like to soak in all the knowledge that the man has. Like I I I've told him before, you know, like I feel like he really saved me probably a decade of really trying to figure out this talent and figure it out writing and the music scene just in the two years that he was able to teach us. Yeah, Speaker 1 00:55:59 Dude. Absolutely. Well, um, guys, this has been another edition of the In the Round podcast. Remember, support our friends at Trailside C B D Emporium. They've got all your C b, D and hemp needs. Um, y'all go check 'em out 20% off with the promo code i t r They've got that rewards program going as well. So you become a customer, they will reward Speaker 3 00:56:21 You. And also don't forget to, uh, hit up our boy. Well tell media if you need any video or photo shoot. Speaker 1 00:56:28 Yeah, whales is the guy. Uh, photos, videos. You're getting hitched. You got hell. Even baby pictures. Whatever. Whales has Speaker 3 00:56:36 Photo shoots just because photo Speaker 1 00:56:38 Shoots. Just because, um, y'all go hit up our boys at Whale Tail Media Company. Thank you guys for listening. This has been another edition of the In Thero podcast.